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Witness Name: Ms Julie Carter
Statement No: WITN0244_01
Exhibits: None
Dated 10 January 2022
THE POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF MS JULIE CARTER
1, MS JULIE CARTER WILL STATE as follows:
INTRODUCTION
1. I am grateful to the Chair to be invited to provide a “human impact” statement,
concerning the physical, psychological, emotional, reputational and financial
consequences to me and my family of being held responsible for shortfalls shown by
the Horizon IT system and Post Office Limited’s actions toward me and my family.
The initial paragraphs below provide a brief summary of my background, and provide
context to the detail of the human impact of the Horizon scandal on me and my
family. This statement does not reflect a full account of my experiences or those of
my family and if necessary or required I will provide further witness statement
evidence.
2. I have been married to my husband GRO I for 21 years. We live together in South
Shields! GRO is my full time career as I suffer from severe MS.
BACKGROUND PRIOR TO APPOINTMENT AS SPM AND DECISION TO BECOME A SPM
3. Prior to becoming subpostmistress I ran a care home for the elderly. I was the
manager for about 8 years.
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4. My husband, GRO ihas been in business his whole life, he ran 4 newsagents one of
which had a Post Office.
5. After we got married, RO} had just bought another shop and was in need of some
extra help. As I was trained in management, it made sense for me to join the family
'GRO_
business, so I left the care home and went to work wit!
6. iand I had long terms plans for the business and would have liked to have
bought more stores.
"2 I started working in the branch as an assistant and then eventually, after about 1%
years, I became subpostmistress.
8. I was a Subpostmistress of 12 Dickens Avenue, Biddick Hall Estate, South Shields
NE34 9SY from 2 March 2004 to 11 June 2009.
9. We also operated a newsagent and off licence from the premises and employed
three part time assistants.
Training and Support
10. Whilst I was not a subpostmistress initially, I did receive some training on Horizon
when it was introduced. I attended a two-day course provided by the Post Office.
11. As I had been working in the post office for a few years, the Post Office retail
network manager, Phil Allen, did not feel further Horizon training was necessary.
12. We also requested training on Horizon for all of our staff in the Post Office but this
never went ahead.
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Helpline
13. I contacted the helpline 2-3 times per week.
14, I frequently rang the helpdesk to discuss my concerns regarding giros going missing
at head office or the Girobank. However, I was just told that these things simply
cannot happen and/or that the relevant person to discuss this matter with was not
available.
15. Around November 2007 after the installation of the Bank of Ireland ATM (the
provider Post Office Ltd contracted with to provide ATM services in their post
offices), I contacted the helpline to request someone to come into the branch and
look at the situation with the ATM as my shortfalls had escalated following the
installation of the machine.
16. I also requested that someone call me back to go through the account with me. I was
simply advised that the helpline would pass my query on and get the relevant person
to contact me.
17. Three weeks later I had to contact the Helpline again, as no one had called me back
or come out to the branch, and my problems were getting worse.
18. Aman called John Wilson did finally come out, however after the training the branch
was still having issues, so I called the helpline again to request Mr Wilson returned to
the branch.
19. Mr Wilson did not however return to the branch, and I do not know whether my
request was ever passed on by the Helpline.
20. The shortfalls kept arising and all the Helpline advised me to do was place this
money into the suspense account until the shortfalls got so bad that I actually
contacted the helpline to request an audit.
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21, The person on the helpline said that this was an unusual request and that they had
never had anyone request an audit before.
22. I contacted the Helpline numerous times to request that an auditor was sent to the
office, each time I was advised that someone would come back to me and each time
my request was ignored and no one had the courtesy to call me back as promised.
23. I also asked for transactional records for the ATM machine transactions, but these
were never provided.
24, I once contacted the helpline to advise them that I had a shortfall of £5,000.00. I was
advised to remove all the figures from the balance on Horizon and re-enter these.
25. When I logged back on in the morning, after following the advice provided by the
helpline, my account was showing a £10,000.00 shortfall. I again contacted the
helpdesk and they simply told me that the problem would sort itself out.
SHORTFALLS
26. In this section, I set out in very brief detail my experience of shortfalls arising from
deficiencies in the Horizon IT System, and Post Office Limited’s actions as a result. This
is only a brief introduction to those matters, in order to provide necessary context for
the explanation of the human impact which follows.
27. I would estimate that throughout my position in the branch, I paid or Post Office
deducted in excess of £69,000.00.
28. I had a £5,000.00 shortfall that subsequently doubled to £10,000.00 after speaking
to the helpline. I did not pay the Post Office straight away, as it was placed into the
suspense account and most likely is included in the final shortfall figure.
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On discovering the discrepancy, I contacted the helpline who told me to remove and
re-enter the figures on horizon which appeared to double the shortfall and on
contacting the helpline again, was simply told the problem would sort itself out.
I therefore transferred it to the suspense account. I tried to discuss the issue with my
regional line manager, Phil Allen however, he said he would need to speak to
someone else as his main duties related to promotions and sales.
On 21 May 2009 a shortfall amounting to £69,655.24 occurred, this was then
corrected to around £57,000.00. I paid the Post Office for this shortfall in
instalments.
After contacting the helpline on numerous occasions in relation to the issues with
the ATM and shortfalls, I received a call from Post Office Limited requesting me to
attend a meeting in Gateshead to discuss the shortfall.
I attended the meeting with my husband; *
On entering the meeting I was advised that this was not a formal disciplinary
meeting. I was shocked as I had constantly been crying out for help.
In the meeting, rather than discussing issues or ways we could investigate the
problem, all the Post Office was concerned about was how I was going to repay the
£36,000.00 back that was in the suspense account.
I was distraught and in shock.
After the meeting my husband and I spoke to Barclays bank and re-mortgaged
£15,000 on the family home, and forwarded the cheque to the Post Office.
It was also agreed that I would repay £500.00 a month to the Post Office to pay back
the supposed shortfalls.
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39. The shortfalls however, kept escalating until they reached the amount stated above.
40. I have also paid various amounts in relation to missing Giros.
Audit and investigation
41, Two auditors, one of whom was a trainee came to the branch on 21 May 2009 to
complete the audit. On completing the audit, I was told there was a shortfall of
£69,655.24.
42. I noted that the auditors had left out certain items in the audit and when I
questioned this, the auditor said, “what is £50- £60 in comparison to £60,000".
43. The auditors made a few phone calls and passed the telephone to me. I spoke to the
contracts manager who told me I was suspended with immediate effect and that I
was required to leave the Post Office Immediately.
44, No reason was provided to me to explain why I had been suspended and no
explanation was provided as to where the discrepancy/shortfall lay.
45. The Post Office also searched my home. I felt like this was a violation of my privacy.
Suspension and Termination
46, I was suspended on 21 May 2009 following the audit, because of the alleged
shortfall. I went home in tears after this.
47. After I was suspended the area was secured and I was not allowed to enter the office
again.
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48. The Post Office recommended that we request the services of,
temporary subpostmaster) to take over the running of the Post Office.
49. We did this and he took over and ran the post office for about 2 years.
50. On the Thursday, following my suspension two people from the Post Office Fraud
team came to my home to interview me. Following the interview, I was advised that
I may face prosecution.
51, The day after the interview, I received a call from the Area manager, Andy Carpenter
whom I had never met before. He told me to go to Durham for a disciplinary
meeting.
52. I explained my situation to the area manager and asked if the building had wheel
chair access. He replied to me saying, "do yourself a favour pet, resign because you
are going to get sacked". When I asked him what grounds I was going to be sacked,
he stated for misrunning of the post office.
53. Following our discussion, I decided to resign. I forwarded my letter of resignation the
following day, citing my deteriorating medical condition.
54. Due to the Post Office’s demands for payment we had to sell the business for what I
believe was a significant undervalue. I believe the business was worth around
£200,000, but we ended up selling it for £125,000 due to the pressure from the Post
Office.
and Criminal Proceedings
55. The Post Office did not pursue civil or criminal proceedings against me for the
recovery of any alleged shortfalls. However, they did threaten me with prosecution
and I feared they would take action against me.
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56. Since being told I could be prosecuted I was never told that I wouldn’t be and I have
had this hanging over my head ever since, constantly worried that I may be
prosecuted at any time.
HUMAN IMPACT
57. I suffered serious problems with the Horizon system including many shortfalls, which I
paid from my own funds. I reported these to the Post Office seeking assistance.
58. Instead, I was investigated and threatened with prosecution. I was told to resign. I was
forced to sell the post office at a loss.
59. My husband and I re-mortgaged our home. My husband ran a news
agent/convenience shop to repay the Post Office. Finally, we could not continue and
were forced to sell our shop. We lost our home and went into social housing. I
estimate that my losses were in the region of £250,000, not including lost salary and
lost profits from our retail shop.
60. I participated in the mediation scheme but it was wound up before my case could be
considered. I was party to the group litigation against Post Office Limited, as such I am
excluded from the Historic Shortfall Scheme
61. The requirement to make good the shortfalls meant that I had large amounts of
money being taken out of my salary every month.
62. We had to borrow and use credit cards to cover losses. We had to scrimped and
scrape whatever we could.
63. Eventually we had to re-mortgage our house in order to be able to continue paying
monies to the Post Office.
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After my suspension, my husband RO! ad to keep the shop running in order to be
able to pay to Post Office. We were having to use profits from the retail side to repay
the shortfalls which meant the shop was losing out.
We became unable to keep the business running, and with my health deteriorating
rapidly. ; eeded to support and look after me because the pressure from the
Post Office had escalated my illness so we ended up having to sell.
When we sold the business we had no choice but to sell it undervalue. We were left
with about £15,000.00 to live on for the foreseeable future, with no prospect of either
us finding alternative employment because my MS meant I could no longer work and
‘GRO! need to care for me.
We only just managed to avoid being declared bankrupt.
I was devastated when I was alleged to be responsible for the shortfalls.
I could not believe it, I always said that they were errors on Horizon and they would be
found. Never did I think I would have to pay for them.
and I were under immense stress. During this time’ yihad a heart attack, that
we believe was directly attributed to the stress the Post Office was putting him under.
Since I joined the Post Office the stress has caused my health to deteriorate so much
that it has exacerbated my MS, and I cannot go anywhere without a wheelchair or
motorised vehicle as I cannot control anything below my waist.
As a consequence of being held responsible for the shortfalls we ended up having to
sell our home. We had to use all the money from the sale of our house to pay back the
Post Office.
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As my MS was deteriorating, GROjhad been in the process of applying to the local
counsel for affordable disability housing.
Luckily we managed to secure a bungalow, but quite frankly had it not have been for
my deteriorating condition we would have become homeless.
Our good name was also tarnished as a result of the accusations. RO had been in
business for years and this damaged his reputation.
When the issues started to become public knowledge (GRO ‘had to pay for a large
article the South Shields Gazette to inform the local community what had happened
with the Post Office and state that it wasn’t our fault.
I had the threat of prosecution looming over my head for years, living in fear that I
could be prosecuted.
Whilst! GRO ‘carried on running the convenience side of the store, he could not bring
himself to go into the shop. His family had been running businesses for over 30 years
and he could not even walk into his own because of what the post office put us
though.
Having kept the retail side running for 2 years after my suspension it came to a point
ould have been happy to keep going but it just
was not worth the stress anymore.
My health was getting worse from the ongoing stress and ‘GR eeded to look after
me, so we just needed out.
Neither of us have been able to work since leaving the post office and: GRO! is now my
full time career.
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I was not convicted of any criminal offences and we were told this was because we
were able to find a buyer quickly. We were told the Post Office were convinced that
we had someone to take over the post office and pay them back.
The only thing the Post Office cared about was the money.
They did not care about their subpostmasters and the lives they were destroying along
the way.
Whilst I was certain that I was not a thief, this put a tremendous strain on my marriage
and made me a recluse.
I could not mix with friends or socialise with anyone because I felt that my name was
tarnished in the community.
We kept our struggles to ourselves, which was damaged our relationship, as we had
nowhere to blow off steam so we often ended up taking our frustrations out on each
other.
I became depressed and anxious that I am still on antidepressants to this day, in fact I
have to take 38 tablets a day.
My husband,! GRO}is a very strong willed person and not much can defeat him, but
even this impacted and his mental health suffered as a result.
Our family were not really aware of the impact that this was having on us because we
kept it to ourselves,
Family Christmas were a nightmare for us because we did not have the money to buy
our grandchildren gifts and we couldn’t bear to even face our family.
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92. This was very hard on us and it has been a very hard pill to swallow having to walk
away from your business after so many years.
93. I still struggle to come to terms with the fact that we were in business for so many
years and through no fault of our own someone just ripped it out from under our feet.
CONCLUSION
94. The Post Office destroyed our livelihood.
95. We now live in affordable housing and our standard of living has dropped
dramatically.
96. We live in an accessible bungalow. It is the little luxuries in life we miss our on, like
having a dining room so that we could eat dinner at the dining table.
97. Had none of the above happened we would still have a business, we would have our
own home and be living in an area that wanted to.
98. I despise the Post Office now, and if I had my way I would never buy a stamp off them
again.
99. I would like all the money they took from me back, we are far from being squared up
with them and they should right their wrong doings.
100. The Post Office need to be held accountable for the financial and emotional hardship
they have caused us and so many others.
101. The very least the Post Office could do is apologise to all the people whose lives they
have wrecked.
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Statement of Truth
I believe the contents of this Statement to be true.
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